Comments on: Gizmos & Gadgets: A New Kinetic Flywheel – Real or Hoax? https://techsomogro.com/gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax Science, Technology and the Future Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:53:16 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: lenrosen4 https://techsomogro.com/gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax/#comment-14301 Tue, 06 Oct 2015 15:53:16 +0000 http://www.21stcentech.com/?p=9745#comment-14301 einsteindavinci. If it defies the laws of physics then it isn't too difficult to assume it is a hoax. Remember Kickstarter isn't about investment. It's about giving a gift of money to someone who pitches an idea or product. My biggest concern about crowdfunding is the lack of rules that govern it.]]> In reply to einsteindavinci.

If it defies the laws of physics then it isn’t too difficult to assume it is a hoax. Remember Kickstarter isn’t about investment. It’s about giving a gift of money to someone who pitches an idea or product. My biggest concern about crowdfunding is the lack of rules that govern it.

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By: einsteindavinci https://techsomogro.com/gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax/#comment-14299 Sat, 03 Oct 2015 04:05:00 +0000 http://www.21stcentech.com/?p=9745#comment-14299 The Velkess website offers no pictures of prototypes, information of current stage of development and only superficial technical data. The phone number goes to a message box which is full and no message can be left. Emails are ignored and queries never answered. Velkess is registered in a private apartment in San Francisco. Is there a factory or even a lab? Who knows. The only changes on the website are the delivery dates pushed forward by another year. How far would $54,000 go for a project of this magnitude? To me, this smells of amateurism or even outright fraud. I don’t think they have got anything to show at all.

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By: John Moser https://techsomogro.com/gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax/#comment-14260 Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:05:00 +0000 http://www.21stcentech.com/?p=9745#comment-14260 Niccolo5. 3,000mph isn't an important measurement. The question is not of speed, but of KE. Something weighing more than a bullet but traveling slower will cause as much or more damage--think of a 300kg wrecking ball smashing into a house at 40mph, versus an 80g 9mm round at 580mph. We use flywheels for continuous backup power storage in high-power operations such as keeping up data centers or 500kW television broadcast equipment. I've had my cubicle 8 feet from a window looking out into a picnic area, with a block wall separating me from the high-energy flywheel 4 feet away. That flywheel would turn that wall to fine asbestos dust if it went AWOL.]]> In reply to Niccolo5.

3,000mph isn’t an important measurement. The question is not of speed, but of KE. Something weighing more than a bullet but traveling slower will cause as much or more damage–think of a 300kg wrecking ball smashing into a house at 40mph, versus an 80g 9mm round at 580mph.

We use flywheels for continuous backup power storage in high-power operations such as keeping up data centers or 500kW television broadcast equipment. I’ve had my cubicle 8 feet from a window looking out into a picnic area, with a block wall separating me from the high-energy flywheel 4 feet away. That flywheel would turn that wall to fine asbestos dust if it went AWOL.

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By: Sherwood_Botsford https://techsomogro.com/gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax/#comment-14145 Tue, 21 Apr 2015 18:24:00 +0000 http://www.21stcentech.com/?p=9745#comment-14145 Niccolo5. mv^2/2 = E v^2= 2E/m v2 = 15 * 3.6 million / 750 = 108 million. /750 = .144 million. v = 144 m/sec Now that's the average speed, given the pics, the rim speed will be somewhat higher. Call it 200 m/sec or about 2/3 the speed of sound.]]> In reply to Niccolo5.

mv^2/2 = E
v^2= 2E/m

v2 = 15 * 3.6 million / 750
= 108 million. /750
= .144 million.
v = 144 m/sec

Now that’s the average speed, given the pics, the rim speed will be somewhat higher. Call it 200 m/sec or about 2/3 the speed of sound.

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By: Niccolo5 https://techsomogro.com/gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax/#comment-8363 Thu, 18 Apr 2013 02:54:57 +0000 http://www.21stcentech.com/?p=9745#comment-8363 lenrosen4. Well, as best I can discover, a 750-pound flywheel that stores 15 kWh will likely spin at about 30,000 RPM. My 5,000 mph rim speed was perhaps somewhat of an exaggeration. More likely the rim speed would be closer to 3,000 mph, but still, the authorities will never license a 3,000 mph flywheel for above ground residential use. A good treatment of the basic physics of actual flywheels is given at: http://rpm2.8k.com/basics.htm There is just no way to rediscover the flywheel. Batteries will beat it out in the market place. By the way, it makes sense to suppose Panasonic has heard of flywheels. Theoretical longevity of flywheels just isn’t much of a bonus. The flywheel economics suffer from the same economic problem that permanent stainless steel residential roofs, siding, and plumbing do. No one wants to buy a permanent building to use for a temporary lifespan. In the US the average residence changes hands about ever seven years.]]> In reply to lenrosen4.

Well, as best I can discover, a 750-pound flywheel that stores 15 kWh will likely spin at about 30,000 RPM. My 5,000 mph rim speed was perhaps somewhat of an exaggeration. More likely the rim speed would be closer to 3,000 mph, but still, the authorities will never license a 3,000 mph flywheel for above ground residential use. A good treatment of the basic physics of actual flywheels is given at: http://rpm2.8k.com/basics.htm
There is just no way to rediscover the flywheel. Batteries will beat it out in the market place. By the way, it makes sense to suppose Panasonic has heard of flywheels.
Theoretical longevity of flywheels just isn’t much of a bonus. The flywheel economics suffer from the same economic problem that permanent stainless steel residential roofs, siding, and plumbing do. No one wants to buy a permanent building to use for a temporary lifespan. In the US the average residence changes hands about ever seven years.

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By: lenrosen4 https://techsomogro.com/gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax/#comment-8353 Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:10:36 +0000 http://www.21stcentech.com/?p=9745#comment-8353 Niccolo5. The argument for cost using Velkess over a battery storage solution is described in terms of savings over the lifetime of the product's operational use. So one can argue that a battery has a finite existence of a few years before needing replacement whereas a flywheel if properly maintained can last "x" number of years spreading the costs. Without a price tag there is no way to know if the claim will prove true. And without an operational flywheel working "x" number of years there is no way to validate the savings that will be derived. In the meantime Panasonic is selling a home solar and battery storage system in the Asian and European markets. See http://www.21stcentech.com/energy-update-home-energy-storage-technology-commercial/.]]> In reply to Niccolo5.

The argument for cost using Velkess over a battery storage solution is described in terms of savings over the lifetime of the product’s operational use. So one can argue that a battery has a finite existence of a few years before needing replacement whereas a flywheel if properly maintained can last “x” number of years spreading the costs. Without a price tag there is no way to know if the claim will prove true. And without an operational flywheel working “x” number of years there is no way to validate the savings that will be derived. In the meantime Panasonic is selling a home solar and battery storage system in the Asian and European markets. See http://www.21stcentech.com/energy-update-home-energy-storage-technology-commercial/.

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By: Niccolo5 https://techsomogro.com/gizmos-gadgets-kinetic-flywheel-real-hoax/#comment-8351 Tue, 16 Apr 2013 02:45:15 +0000 http://www.21stcentech.com/?p=9745#comment-8351 I don’t think it’s a hoax. The technical explanations they offer are at least consistent with the known laws of mechanics, For instance, schemes for storing energy kinetically are all hostage to the equation: Kinetic Energy equals 1/2 the mass times the square of the velocity. It matters not whether the velocity is linear or rotational. The kinetic energy stored in the flywheel increases with the square of the RPM, and linearly with the mass. So when Bill Gray says their 25-pound prototype stores 1/2 kWh and that a 750-pound production version would store 30 times as much (15 kWh), that’s numerically consistent with simple physics (assuming the same RPM that produces 1/2 kWh with the 25-pound wheel). But the Velkess presentation begs an obvious question: “Why not just spin the 25-pound flywheel 5.5 times as fast and store 30 times as much energy?

And therein lies the major fly in the flywheel ointment. The real breakthrough technology for flywheels is not how to balance them, suspend them, and make low cost low friction bearings, but rather extremely strong materials that can constantly and reliably resist the huge centrifugal forces. They can’t spin the 25-pound flywheel any faster without centrifugal forces explosively disassembling the wheel. That might be a moderate problem for a 25-pound wheel, but imagine the explosive disassembly of a 750-pound wheel. Think in terms of a suitcase nuke detonating in the basement. I just don’t see commercial viability.

Apparently Li-ion batteries could and should sell for about $1,000 kW. Catastrophic failures of 15 kWh banks of Li-ion batteries are nothing like suitcase nukes. I just don’t see how the 750-pound flywheel system sells for less than $15,000. So the batteries seem lighter, more compact, and safer. Unless Velkess has made some breakthrough in super strong materials, it doesn’t look like a good investment.

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